The PZ Myers Memorial Debate
Posted in Blogosphere, PZ Myers Memorial Debate on | 3 minutes | 82 Comments →
In honor of Paul Zachary Myers publicly declaring that he won’t debate creationists anymore, Vox Day has offered the PZ Myers Memorial Challenge. Long story short: PZ wussed out, said a bunch of mean-spirited personal crap about Vox’s dad, and qualified himself as a “coward” by his own definition. PZ, always the friendly and gentle atheist, wrote:
Who is Vox Day? He’s a recipient of wingnut welfare, a pretentious nobody who had a rich and rotten crook for a father and who writes cheesy fantasy novels in between penning cheesy political discourse.
Now that’s weird. Does anybody remember what PZ said when J.J. Ramsey insulted his daughter before being censored into Darwinian oblivion?
If you must insult my family, do it to their faces so they can kick your ass; it’s cowardly to try and do it in front of me.
Oh really now? Looks like the butterfly collector could use a little brushing up on his fallacies, eh? Why dost PZ plead specially? Now that PZ wimped out, Vox needs an atheist with a brain and some courage to debate! I believe that former TWIM regular Dominic Saltarelli has agreed to debate Vox, but that has yet to be confirmed. If anybody ’round these parts wants to take the challenge, contact Vox. Personally, I’d recommend Peter Hurford for the atheist side. Or dguller, but I don’t think he reads here anymore. However, and here’s the interesting part, somebody nominated yours truly as a possible judge for the debate [HT: Quixote]. A commenter going by Mr. Nightstick wrote:
Have you guys seen this guy? He is on par with Vox in his dismantling of atheism. He would be great for the theist judge.
Well. That was nice. I noticed something else this commenter wrote in another of Vox’s threads:
Found your website the other day through CSA. Excellent work! I think you and Vox should go on a comedy tour. Watching people go through convulsions when you and him destroy their worlds is very enjoyable.
Much obliged, Mr. Nightstick, much obliged. Although, I’m not out to destroy worlds, I just call it like I see it for whatever it’s worth. People tend to either hate me or love me when it comes to my dealings on atheist blogs. Oh well. It’s better than being boring I guess! At any rate, I emailed Vox and told him I was interested, so we’ll see where it goes.
Garren
says...That’s an awfully broad topic for a written debate.
Dominic Saltarelli
says...It’s confirmed. I should have something ready for an opening statement by tomorrow. Honestly, I’m doing this more to see what he has up his sleeve than anything. He’s been rather coy about it ever since the original challenge.
Daniel
says...I look forward to it!
Matt DeStefano
says...I sent him an e-mail saying that I thought you’d make a good judge, for what it’s worth! I don’t know Dominic, but I definitely have a few good candidates for the atheist side.
Hunt
says...Technically, Vox Day’s dad is in fact a rotten crook. Not because he was convicted for tax evasion, which in today’s political environment might be truly justifiable, but because in the process he attempted to implicate his secretary and blackmail her with complicity and then plot the “taking out” of the judge presiding his case. So you can’t really say PZ was just “mean-spirited.” More like accurately reporting the facts.
VD
says...That’s totally incorrect, Hunt. His secretary was his niece and the only one attempting to implicate her in anything was the Federal prosecutor, who also attempted to implicate about ten other people, including me, which was absurd. Moreover, the “taking out” comment referred to forcing the judge off the case for her conflict of interest and stubborn refusal to follow the law as written, not killing her. Considering that my father was a) on the lam for more than a year, b) well-armed, and c) a crack shot, he could have “taken out” anyone he wanted if he had ever intended violence.
It is truly stretching the bounds of the credible to insist that an MIT engineer is dumb enough to plot violence against a Federal official over a prison phone he knows is being tapped.
There was nothing accurate about PZ’s comment. My father is a Federal felon sentenced to prison for 15 years and two months, he is not “a rich and rotten crook”.
Daniel
says...I think we are hearing the death-rattle of the New Atheist movement.
It’s been ten years since 9/11 and I suspect the New Atheists have run out of arguments and don’t know how to respond to real theological and philosophical points. They are tired of attacking straw men, and who could blame them. There has been a decline in new books and many are declining to debate or engage solid theologians and theistic philosophers, like WLC. They are content to move on to issues assuming God does not exist. Perhaps they will go back to their own fields of expertise and enrich the world by producing work about which they are competent. If so, we are returning to pre-9/11 atheism, where the atheists do their work satisfied with their own disbelief and leave the believers alone to their own speculations.
Daniel
says...Or am I speaking too soon?
Dominic Saltarelli
says...Hunt, just…. shut it, please. Family attacks really are in poor taste and sniping at Vox using his dad’s predicament for ammunition leaves me thinking you have nothing relevant to actually say.
PZ is a rampant, raging, flaming hypocrite and the last person on Earth you’d want to defend. Trust me. We’re talking about a man who has gone on record stating that we don’t need less government, we need *more* because nothing protects the common man from tyrants better than a bloated clumsy bureaucratic mess.
Seriously.
joseph
says...@Daniel
Maybe that would be a shame, as the “New Atheists” have provoked many into thinking about religion, who might otherwise be apathetic. If theists are able to mount a solid defense, that provides a great witness to unbelievers. For believers, questioning, and possibly strengthening their faith isn’t a bad thing.
The biblical God allows his subjects to be tested, so “new atheists”, are performing a service for God even if they aren’t aware of it.
If you are a believer, you have not cause for concern.
Matt DeStefano
says...Now I see why PZ bowed out of the debate. And now representing atheism, this ridiculous troll Dominic:
“Family attacks really are in poor taste”
followed by:
“PZ is a rampant, raging, flaming hypocrite and the last person on Earth you’d want to defend. Trust me.”
His reasoning? P.Z. Myers wants more government regulation. Sure, qualify a person as a “raging hypocrite” by his stance on government regulation.
The stupidity baffles me.
Patrick Mefford
says...I wish Vox would stop mentioning his Mensa membership.
Dominic Saltarelli
says...@Matt DeStefano
So PZ Myers is… his own family. You do realize you just announced how stupid you are to everyone… with a megaphone.
Here’s my impersonation of Matt DeStefano:
“Hey everyone, look at me, I can’t tell the difference between a person and their family members! Masturbation is Incest!”
Plus you can’t even see the contradiction between opposing tyranny and supporting the means by which people are tyrannized. Never mind that the OP spells out PZ’s hypocrisy regarding sniping at family members pretty clearly as well.
Just fail on top of fail.
What?
U mad bro?
Daniel
says...@joseph,
Maybe? But I care not to make such utilitarian calculations. It could be that more people were moved into honest reflection about religion through their bad arguments, and I hope that is true. Then again, if my experience on the internet and among my peers is any indicator, there are a lot of young people out there who have bought Dawkins/Hitchens/Harris/Myers hook, line, and sinker. If the New Atheist movement were to disband, I would not shed a tear. There are plenty of honest and challenging atheistic philosophers of religion and atheologians out there. People like Quentin Smith, Graham Oppy, J.J.C. Smart, and Michael Tooley are far more competent in rebutting theistic arguments than Dawkins, or even Dennett (who is at least semi-charitable at times). I’d like to see more engagement with real old-school atheism of the Bertrand Russell, J.L. Mackie and Anthony Flew variety. That is where the intellectual battle-line should be drawn.
As much as I’d like to read a debate between Vox Day and PZ Myers, I doubt Myers would bring anything to the table aside from his typical vitriol, ad hominems, red herrings, straw men, and his ample reliance on the genetic fallacy. It gets old after a while.
Newsflash for Myers fans: Neither theism in general nor Christianity in particular entail the denial of evolution or the affirmation of Young Earth Creationism.
Matt DeStefano
says...I was making the claim that it’s poor taste to say things like “PZ is a rampant, raging, flaming hypocrite and the last person on Earth you’d want to defend.” If you think otherwise, power to you.
I won’t defend P.Z. insulting Vox’s family, but I don’t think that “rotten crook” is an unfair characterization of Robert Beale.
joseph
says...@Daniel
Until I get granted the gift of prophecy maybe must suffice!
I noted previously that you believe earthquakes, congenital disease, wars etc. may be part of God’s greater plan I would suggest, in earnest, that you extend the thought to lesser evils, such as vitriolic, populist atheist author.
I too, prefer conversation, and dialogue, to name calling, but I don’t concern myself with their free speech.
I think Dawkins, PZ Myers are better at the creationist debate, as they should be, as I was bought up a firm creationist, they are of interest in that regard.
Graham Oppy is very interesting, but without a philosophical nackground sometimes one sentence takes an hour of background reading to clear up.
joseph
says...@VD,
I am sorry to hear about your father and sorry PZ Myers used his behaviour to besmirch your character. We are not our fathers.
Hunt
says...Hunt, just…. shut it, please. Family attacks really are in poor taste and sniping at Vox using his dad’s predicament for ammunition leaves me thinking you have nothing relevant to actually say.
Que air violin. Dominic, let me tell you something. Vox Day runs one of the most vile blogs in the sphere. Open season was declared on him a long, long time ago. He did it to himself. He will go in turns from attacking a person’s honor, to intelligence, education, children’s education, profession, professional status, and the list just goes on and on. So please, stop with the sanctimony.
Hunt
says...Here’s my impersonation of Matt DeStefano:
“Hey everyone, look at me, I can’t tell the difference between a person and their family members! Masturbation is Incest!”
JFC when did Dom Salt become such a putz?
Hunt
says...That’s totally incorrect, Hunt.
This makes interesting reading:
http://www.quatloos.com/Q-Forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4614
Eileen Johnson was clearly instructed to do illegal things, but perhaps not blackmailed with complicity (or perhaps she was; there’s not enough there to tell). Robert Beale stated that God had instructed him to destroy the judge; so unless he had a rather skew sense of the word “destroy,” that means kill. Probably the only reason he wasn’t indicted on more serious charges is that by this time he was clearly psychotic, or close to it.
As far as charging you with anything…I do wonder what happened to the 100K your father successfully transferred to the personal Swiss account, and God knows what other funds.
All in all, your dad is a “rotten crook,” get used to it.
Hunt
says...— I still disagree with a 15 year sentence though, but “tax evasion” is probably at the bottom of the list of reasons your dad should have a little “time out” in the federal country club.
joseph
says...@Hunt
I see your point VD Senior has done and said awful things.
Maybe even VD has done some deplorable things. I never heard of him before now.
But you can’t imply VD is responsible for his father (sins of the father being one of the worst ideas from the OT), and whether VD is naughty, or nice, has little relevance to whether he is in the right over creationism or not.
PZ, and I am quite fond of him, should have said “I don’t want to debate the guy, I dislike him intensely” and left it at that. PZ slipped up, big deal, point it out, turn the other and enjoy life.
Hunt
says...Normally I would agree with you, but not in this instance. PZ has been the subject of weekly, if not at times daily, harassment by Vox Day, at least his character has been. If there is anyone on “God’s green Earth” who has the right to take the gloves off and bitch slap someone, it is PZ against VD.
It has no relevance! None whatsoever. As for the horrible verboten attack against family thing. BS. Outside VD himself there is virtually no chance any member of his family will ever read anything here. VD has earned his abuse many times over, many many times over.
VD
says...Normally I would agree with you, but not in this instance. PZ has been the subject of weekly, if not at times daily, harassment by Vox Day, at least his character has been. If there is anyone on “God’s green Earth” who has the right to take the gloves off and bitch slap someone, it is PZ against VD.
You’re so completely full of shit, Hunt. PZ was always the one harassing me, not the other way around. He was attacking me before I had any idea who he was or even what he was. I didn’t publicize his daughter’s public defense of bestiality until he went after my father, which finally made him belatedly decide that family should be off limits. And now you’re crying that I won’t leave him alone when he and other Sciencebloggers are still attacking me on a regular basis? Ed Brayton just did so again yesterday! I don’t mind, it’s not as if I can’t handle it, but please don’t lie and claim that I’m the one harassing them.
If PZ wants to take the gloves off, he knows where to find me. I’ll gladly take him on intellectually or physically, any time. He’s the one constantly on the run, not me.
But if anyone has been harassing anyone, you have been harassing my blog, as you have been banned from VP many times under many different pseudonyms, including Beelzebub, Dodo Bird, and now Guns Germs Gay etc, for your vulgar and vituperative attacks on various people, including my wife. Note that just because most of your poisonous rants about cunts and bitches and so forth were deleted doesn’t mean I didn’t save copies of them.
By the way, I am currently one of the four owners of the company you mentioned. Which means you are, quite literally, blaming the victim, when you suggest that I was somehow involved due to living on the same continent at the time.
joseph
says...Hmmm…maybe we give you a ruler and you can compare penis size too.
Thinking Emotions
says...LOL! This shit is too funny!
VD
says...Hmmm…maybe we give you a ruler and you can compare penis size too.
Considering that mere debate frightens him, I tend to doubt the squatty little guy would go for that. To say nothing of the likelihood that it would be tough to find it under all that belly fat.
joseph
says...Well, personally PZ’s somewhat hypothetical disinclination to display his penis publically is not a source of great dissapointment.
Hmmm trying to think of a joke involving “Big Willy” Lane Craig, but not sure if you septic tanks have that slang…
joseph
says...Disappointment, damn it!
Dominic Saltarelli
says...Hunt = Beezle?!?!?!
Do the wonders ever cease?
But it does explain a few things. Foremost being, after I pointed out Matt’s absurdity in trying to equate insulting someone’s family member as being the exact same thing as insulting that person, you step up and do the same, claiming Vox is mean, so that means its ok to attack his dad.
I heart the internet.
Yes, Vox is the pugilist who is fair game for any and all mudslinging that comes his way. You want to insult him, go right ahead. Hell, I’ve called him a liar myself, but once you start with attacking family members, then you’ve officially run out of anything interesting to say.
The only way to redeem yourself after that is to come up with highly original and esoteric insults to keep me entertained. Sort of like one commenter over at Vox’s blog I remember from sometime back.
John Quincy Public, or something like that. Man was an ARTIST.
Hunt
says...But if anyone has been harassing anyone, you have been harassing my blog, as you have been banned from VP many times under many different pseudonyms, including Beelzebub, Dodo Bird, and now Guns Germs Gay etc, for your vulgar and vituperative attacks on various people, including my wife. Note that just because most of your poisonous rants about cunts and bitches and so forth were deleted doesn’t mean I didn’t save copies of them.
Please make use of any of my deleted comments; especially if they help you in the bedroom with your wretched wife. I love the selective deletion, never when atheist cunts are mentioned, or attacks against blacks or Mexicans or gays or lesbians, or any of the other groups you disfavor.
Remember when you suggested that Dawkins is a pedophile? You’re a sanctimonious little bastard. You richly deserve all the shit that comes your way.
Hunt
says...Hell, I’ve called him a liar myself, but once you start with attacking family members, then you’ve officially run out of anything interesting to say.
It not about being interesting. It’s about kicking people in the balls before you have the same done to you. The bulk of what goes on at VP is pseudo-intellectual bull contest anyway.
Hunt
says...VD’s overriding MO is this: act civil when you think it’s to your advantage, stoop to the lowest level possible when you think it will attract attention or provoke a wanted fight. Retreat to sanctimoniousness self-righteousness when vigorously attacked in kind. Well, bullshit. The hypocrisy just gets too damn thick.
VD
says...As usual, you have the entire situation precisely backwards. It says right in in the very first rule of Vox Popoli that “You will be addressed in the style you choose.”
I act civil when I am addressed in a civil manner. I stoop to the lowest level when I am attacked by vulgar shoggoth from the Internet sewers. This has always been the case. I start nothing and I finish everything.
You, on the other hand, openly assert your belief in “kicking people in the balls before you have the same done to you”. It apparently never occurs to you that if you don’t walk up to a complete stranger and punch him in the face, he might not react by beating the hell out of you. So, you just keep getting stomped on over and over again by a variety of individuals of various creeds and you never seem to learn anything from the process.
There is nothing pseudo-intellectual about the discussions at VP. The ongoing debate over inflation vs deflation alone is of a higher quality than you’ll find anywhere outside an economics department at a decent university. The hundreds of people who participated in the detailed studies of Thucydides, Rothbard, and Dante would most certainly disagree. I haven’t heard of another blog ever doing anything similar.
xdpaul
says...@Hunt
Hee hee.
“Retreat” would not be an accurate characterization of Vox Day under any circumstance. I don’t necessarily find that to be a strength of his (that he never sees the wisdom in backing down), but to suggest that he commonly does so as a matter of strategy is just silly. Quite simply, he never (or almost never) does.
You are acting like someone stepped on your tail and broke it. I mean, it’d be one thing if it was prehensile…
Hunt
says...“Retreat” would not be an accurate characterization of Vox Day under any circumstance.
That’s an equivocation on the word “retreat.” I mean “the next resort,” a change of strategy.
I act civil when I am addressed in a civil manner. I stoop to the lowest level when I am attacked by vulgar shoggoth from the Internet sewers. This has always been the case. I start nothing and I finish everything.
Nonsense. I’m primarily referring to your posts, which often open “pre-stooped” to the lowest level.
You, on the other hand, openly assert your belief in “kicking people in the balls before you have the same done to you”.
I don’t make that my default habit. It has to be shown to me that I’m in that kind of environment. “When in Rome, do as the Romans do.” In your case, I guess that’s literally true. When being kicked in the balls is de rigueur it is best to act preemptively.
joseph
says...“I start nothing and I finish everything.”
Is that Matthew 5:39?
Also Gandhi had a similar quote:
“Those m0th@rf#ck3r5 show me disrespect and I’ll rip all their eyes out, whole m0th$rf!+king world’s gonna be blind”
@Hunt
Your rationale seems to be faulted. Maybe nothing will make him share your views, or drop the views you find most objectionable, using foul language and getting your knickers in a twist sure in hell won’t help.
Hunt
says...Ha ha. Good lord, thinking so would make me more delusional than he is. No, that’s not my motivation. But one of reasons people like Vox Day are so free to practice bullshit is that others think it’s beneath them to respond, or that there’s no use doing so. It’s the age old mistake of hoping that if you ignore them they’ll go away. Didn’t work on the schoolyard, doesn’t work in life either.
Anyway, if cl is even following this discussion and wants to understand exactly why he shouldn’t worry his head terribly over personal attack against VD, I suggest he hop on over to VP and download The Irrational Atheist. Several hundred pages of mean-spirited and often vulgar attack on four men who had never even heard of Vox Day and could not have possibly attacked him in any way. That really ought to settle the matter for him.
xdpaul
says...@Hunt
a) How can an atheist possibly appeal to such a concept as “mean-spirited” when spirit is quite obviously a mythological fantasy? It simply isn’t rational to disregard evidential arguments based on subjective things like tone. Just attack the weak evidence instead. It isn’t hard to do…if the evidence isn’t good.
b) Likewise, in what way does vulgarity (if it exists), in any way, even begin to contradict the measurable evidence delivered?
No offense intended, but from the outside looking in, you appear to be throwing a giant tantrum mistakenly on behalf of others who obviously don’t care. Frankly, that’s the best light I can cast on it.
xdpaul
says...@Joseph, I can’t speak for anyone but myself, but for me, Matthew 5:39 is not relevant. Luke 22:36 is though.
VD
says...Is that Matthew 5:39?
Sensei Alex Avestruz. He is also a Christian who knows that turning the other cheek in the absence of either a desire or an ability to fight is mere justification for cowardice. But you should note that Jesus never hesitated to demonstrate his contempt for the intellectual disputants he labeled vipers.
Hunt and PZ are both poisonous little vipers. One can certainly have meaningful discussions with intelligent and reasonable atheists, but it is not possible with individuals who rely almost entirely on rhetoric rather than dialectic. It is readily apparent that PZ and Hunt are still bearing psychological scars from junior high or high school. Their knickers were permanently twisted long before they began attacking me.
Remember, I’m not the one who haunts Hunt’s blog. And I don’t read a single Scienceblogs blog, including Pharyngula. People like Hunt, PZ, Brayton, etc have chosen to attack me and then cry that I’m harassing them when my responses turn out to be more effective than their attacks. It’s not my problem.
D2A
says...Hunt,
You are in a very dark place.
joseph
says...@D2A
Garth Marhengi’s?
D2A
says...@joseph
darker
xdpaul
says...From this day on I’d have to fight these forces of darkness, and deal with the burden of day-to-day admin.
joseph
says...My head a-splode.
joseph
says...@VD,
I never heard a scripture that “Jesus sayeth, the Pharisees and Saducees are right proper little w@nkers, and they are obviously pyschologically scarred, from Pharisee, or Saducee, High School, as the case may be”.
I never thought of Ieyasu as a coward, though you could say he lacked the desire to fight, only one occassion comes to mind where he lacked the ability.
The question then becomes why does you desire to fight seem so much stronger than the Messiah’s?
“Hunt and PZ are both poisonous little vipers” – then don’t worry.
You may not read science blogs, and yet it seems you are very aware of what PZ has to say.
Engage in tit-for-tat and you risk losing track of what really concerns you and just becoming “that troll”.
Go forth VD, do well, relieve me of my burdensome lack of faith, the horrible awareness that maybe nobody cares, maybe it all counts for nought, maybe tomorrow I will be found to have a metastatic haemangiosarcoma. Don’t persuade me that engage in “he said, she saud, my dad is better than your dad” is anymore constructive use of my time than it was over 25 years ago in the playgrounds of my youth.
joseph
says...@XD Paul,
And alas, now we have entered into a contest of “who can pick a scripture that most supports what we thought before anyway, so we don’t actually have to adjust our views in the slightest”.
I pick the book of Joseph 1:1; “Is that so?”
joseph
says...@Hunt
Here you don’t seem to be effectively limiting Vox Day’s ability to freely to practice, alledged, bullshit.
Also PZ seems to have decided to ignore him.
Also, from personal experience, ignoring bullies works, most need a response, for whatever reason.
joseph
says...@xdpaul
LOL at mean-spirited comment
VD
says...I never thought of Ieyasu as a coward, though you could say he lacked the desire to fight, only one occassion comes to mind where he lacked the ability.
“Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?” – Matthew 26:53. Jesus had the ability to kick ass any time he wanted. That’s what made his decision to accept his death a sacrifice.
The question then becomes why does you desire to fight seem so much stronger than the Messiah’s?I don’t think it’s much of a mystery to figure out why a martial arts fighter might enjoy fighting. Pretty much all contact fighters do.
You may not read science blogs, and yet it seems you are very aware of what PZ has to say.
Every time he writes about me, or says something that people regard as particularly stupid about science, politics, or religion, I get numerous emails from people. Even with a tight spam trap, I receive 100+ emails a day bringing a wide variety of things to my attention, from Congressional press offices, friendly bloggers publicizing their blog posts, the Dread Ilk, and even a few left-leaning atheists of mischievous bent who enjoy stirring the pot.
I simply don’t have the time or the inclination to follow many blogs regularly, especially those that are tedious swamps of foolish nastiness enlivened only by occasional dabbling in science fetishism. But it never ceases to amuse me to set the Fowl Atheist to running and see how all the little chickens squawk in an attempt to deny the obvious.
By the way, I hope you will remember citing PZ’s decision “to ignore me” in the future.
VD
says...I never thought of Ieyasu as a coward, though you could say he lacked the desire to fight, only one occassion comes to mind where he lacked the ability.
“Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?” – Matthew 26:53. Jesus had the ability to kick ass any time he wanted. That’s what made his decision to accept his death a sacrifice.
The question then becomes why does you desire to fight seem so much stronger than the Messiah’s?I don’t think it’s much of a mystery to figure out why a martial arts fighter might enjoy fighting. Pretty much all contact fighters do.
You may not read science blogs, and yet it seems you are very aware of what PZ has to say.
Every time he writes about me, or says something that people regard as particularly stupid about science, politics, or religion, I get numerous emails from people. Even with a tight spam trap, I receive 100+ emails a day bringing a wide variety of things to my attention, from Congressional press offices, friendly bloggers publicizing their blog posts, the Dread Ilk, and even a few left-leaning atheists of mischievous bent who enjoy stirring the pot.
I simply don’t have the time or the inclination to follow many blogs regularly, especially those that are tedious swamps of foolish nastiness enlivened only by occasional dabbling in science fetishism. But it never ceases to amuse me to set the Fowl Atheist to running and see how all the little chickens squawk in an attempt to deny the obvious.
By the way, I hope you will remember citing PZ’s decision “to ignore me” in the future. We should all be so lucky.
D2A
says...Darkness – a poem by Lord Byron
I had a dream, which was not all a dream.
The bright sun was extinguish’d, and the stars
Did wander darkling in the eternal space,
Rayless, and pathless, and the icy earth
Swung blind and blackening in the moonless air;
Morn came, and went and came, and brought no day,
And men forgot their passions in the dread
Of this desolation; and all hearts
Were chill’d into a selfish prayer for light:
And they did live by watchfires – and the thrones,
The palaces of crowned kings, the huts,
The habitations of all things which dwell,
Were burnt for beacons; cities were consumed,
And men were gathered round their blazing homes
To look once more into each other’s face;
Happy were those who dwelt within the eye
Of the volcanos, and their mountain-torch:
A fearful hope was all the world contain’d;
Forest were set on fire but hour by hour
They fell and faded and the crackling trunks
Extinguish’d with a crash and all was black.
The brows of men by the despairing light
Wore an unearthly aspect, as by fits
The flashes fell upon them; some lay down
And hid their eyes and wept; and some did rest
Their chins upon their clenched hands, and smiled;
And others hurried to and fro, and fed
Their funeral piles with fuel, and looked up
With mad disquietude on the dull sky,
The pall of a past world; and then again
With curses cast them down upon the dust,
And gnash’d their teeth and howl’d: the wild birds shriek’d,
And, terrified, did flutter on the ground,
And flap their useless wings; the wildest brutes
Came tame and tremolous; and vipers crawl’d
And twined themselves among the multitude,
Hissing, but stingless, they were slain for food:
And War, which for a moment was no more,
Did glut himself again; a meal was bought
With blood, and each sate sullenly apart
Gorging himself in gloom: no love was left;
All earth was but one thought and that was death,
Immediate and inglorious; and the pang
Of famine fed upon all entrails men
Died, and their bones were tombless as their flesh;
The meagre by the meagre were devoured,
Even dogs assail’d their masters, all save one,
And he was faithful to a corpse, and kept
The birds and beasts and famish’d men at bay,
Till hunger clung them, or the dropping dead
Lured their lank jaws; himself sought out no food,
But with a piteous and perpetual moan
And a quick desolate cry, licking the hand
Which answered not with a caress, he died.
The crowd was famish’d by degrees; but two
Of an enormous city did survive, And they were enemies;
They met beside
The dying embers of an altar-place
Where had been heap’d a mass of holy things
For an unholy usage; they raked up,
And shivering scraped with their cold skeleton hands
The feeble ashes, and their feeble breath
Blew for a little life, and made a flame
Wich was a mockery; then they lifted up
Their eyes as it grew lighter, and
Each other’s aspects. saw, and shriek’d, and died, beheld
Even of their mutual hideousness they died,
Unknowing who he was upon whose brow
Famine had written Fiend. The world was void,
The populous and the powerful was a lump,
Seasonless, herbless, treeless, manless, lifeless,
A lump of death, a chaos of hard clay.
The rivers, lakes, and ocean stood still,
And nothing stirred within their silent depths;
Ships sailorless lay rotting on the sea,
And their masts fell down piecemeal; as they dropp’d
They slept on the abyss without a surge
The waves were dead; the tides were in their grave,
The moon their mistress had expired before;
The winds were withered in the stagnant air,
And the clouds perish’d; Darkness had no need
Of aid from them. She was the universe.
Daniel
says...The moonlight shone down on the place, unhindered.
The gnarled parapets jagged upwards,
like a bony hand of icy indifference.
In the background there was a pigeon.
Who knew how long the place had stood there?
40 years?
50 years?
Tempus immemoria, i.e. always?
But it was a bad place, that much was certain.
A very bad place indeed.
Hunt
says...Hunt,
You are in a very dark place.
Oh BS. Whenever anyone offers a strong counter opinion to someone like VD, there’s always some concern troll there ready to give ersatz psychological advise. VD often dabbles in the same schlock psychobabble. It’s always a red herring meant to divert attention from the matter at hand, which is the total hypocrisy of Vox Day, which I believe I have aptly demonstrated.
VD likes to think that I lose most contests at his site, but this is based on his enduring confusion that being harangued by the goons there somehow constitutes “losing.” It doesn’t. Try fighting your way through a dozen idiots insulting you, a deranged trigger happy woman ready to delete your comments, and a supercilious egomaniac host to make a point sometime. You will relate.
Hunt
says...No offense intended, but from the outside looking in, you appear to be throwing a giant tantrum mistakenly on behalf of others who obviously don’t care. Frankly, that’s the best light I can cast on it.
Depends on the audience you mean. If you mean this site, remember, you’re on a Christian blog. If you mean the blogsphere in general, trying going to Pharyngula and you will meet a white hot hatred for VD that makes me look like an adoring fan. There’s a reason VD doesn’t visit science blogs. If he did he’d probably melt like the wicked witch of the north.
For the record, I don’t hate VD; through a combination of self-deceit and the misfortune of bad associations, I think he’s been terribly mislead about the nature of the world and humanity for various reasons. “Hate the sin, not the sinner” is a total condescension, but it is descriptive. To engage in a bit of psychobabble myself, I also believe he’s in a dark place, and not the one he envisions (in a world run by Satan). Honestly, I can’t imagine what it must be like to go through life as Vox Day.
I pity the fool.
joseph
says...@VD,
Yep, I was making the same point, Jesus had the ability to kick arse any time (except maybe when his father forsook him), but seemed to get through much of his life without being particularly aggressive. So it seems, if we were to imitate Jesus, aggression, revenge are low on our list.
As for the martial artist bit…I don’t know…me too, but I do it because I felt I needed to learn to defend myself after being on the receiving end of an unprovoked attack. I avoided learning because the thought of learning to cause pain worried me. Now sparring is fun, but because they’re my friends.
You cleared up how you’re aware of PZ without reading his blog, makes sense, though perhaps ironically you end up knowing more about him than most casual readers of his blog do.
As for the PZ ignoring you remark, sorry didn’t realise it was ongoing, Ieant “with regard to the afore mentioned debate”, and on another level I am actually sorry for both of you if this continues.
VD
says...As for the martial artist bit…I don’t know…me too, but I do it because I felt I needed to learn to defend myself after being on the receiving end of an unprovoked attack. I avoided learning because the thought of learning to cause pain worried me. Now sparring is fun, but because they’re my friends.
It’s different at every dojo. Most of the guys at our place quite enjoyed inflicting pain, which made it very much a sink-or-swim environment. I loved it, but it wasn’t for everyone and 9 out of 10 quit within the first month. But you learn a lot about yourself when you’re lying flat on your back, bruised and battered, knowing full well that your opponent is going to flatten you again a few seconds after you get up. No one will blame you for staying down in those circumstances, but you will always know the truth of your decision in your heart. It is a defining experience.
I am actually sorry for both of you if this continues.
It almost surely will. But there’s no need to be sorry for anyone. It’s an extremely minor deal and I tend to find it entertaining, for the most part. I neither like nor respect these particular individuals, but I don’t hate them either. They are just part of the static that comes with being an even remotely controversial writer.
joseph
says...Yeah, very different dojo, if the guy I’m matched against is way above my level they usually try to teach me a few techniques before inevitably choking me out.
Fighting after passing out, I guess show some character, but when it happened to me it made me more realistic about how long my brain funxtioned minus blood supply…and when I can escape and can’t escape.
As for striking, not been knocked out yet, but taken a few wallops…still don’t actually think “how’m I going to inflict maximum PAIN!” More like, what’re his feet doing, can I dummy him, what range am I at, best counter”. It does sound like you’ve done this for longer than me.
VD
says...You’re involved in an art that utilizes more grappling, which is actually preferable in preparation for most real world situations. I studied a mix of hard and soft styles combined with pressure points and breaks rather than holds and chokes. So, you never had to worry about getting choked out, the risk was getting knocked out by a punch or kick. Or, as was much more often the case, having an ankle or wrist broken by a destruction block. But you’d get knocked down pretty much every time you sparred any of the upper belts until you reached that level yourself and could hold your own.
That’s the moment of discovery I’m describing. I’ve seen big, supposedly tough, 250-pound linebackers stay down because they didn’t want to get hit anymore and little 105-pound girls keep getting up and coming back for more even though they were in tears.
But in the immortal words of Captain Murtaugh, I am now too old for that lunacy. Although, ironically, I’ve seen three teammates get hurt far worse on the soccer field than anyone ever was in the full-contact dojo. Go figure.
Mr. Nightstick
says...@cl
Regarding a certain conversation you are having at another certain website since I don’t know how to email you.
I would tend to ignore the comments from the brash one, unless asked a direct question. Reasonable people tend to consider the source with her.
In regards to the other female, I would give her the utmost respect due her position but to keep in mind her nature. Obey her in regards to her role but when operating outside the role, ignore her unless asked a direct question. Asking her to clarify is like pulling your own teeth.
Otherwise, keep up the good work. It’s always entertaining to see you hold feet to the fire as it were.
wrf3
says...Taylor: 9/10/11 1:53 PM:
Seriously. You’re ability to discern is seriously lacking.How do you want me to respond to you, Taylor? Should I slap you around like the bitch you are?[1] Or should I, perhaps, cite Scripture: “And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kindly to everyone, an apt teacher, patient, correcting opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth,and that they may escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.”
_______________________________
[1] Written for effect. I’m actually fond of you. I like your backbone.
Hunt
says...cl,
Just read the thread at VP and I think I’m in love with you.
Seriously, I know this could be misconstrued as some atheist sucking up to a Christian who ridicules other Christians, but I don’t mean it that way. You made a great showing and I salute you. I guess I can only describe it as, well, Christian. Follow where the truth and your instincts and good judgment lead you. And if that’s Christianity, I’ll back you 110.5% As you probably know well by now, VD is a very different type of Christian than you are.
cl
says...Well, Hunt to be honest… here’s the short-but-full story. I remember you from the DD days, and I always thought you were more or less well-reasoned, thoughtful and polite over there. Then, a few years passed, and my next exposure is the comments you left on this thread [which I mostly disapproved of, initially, and for the most part, still do, and if you want we can talk about that]. You honestly didn’t even seem like the same well-reasoned, thoughtful and polite commenter I knew at DD’s! I was surprised to learn you were the Guns / Germs / Gays commenter over there. But now I suspect I know part of the reason why: prolonged exposure to that narcissistic, domineering, hyper-hypocritical fantasy world that is Vox Popoli greatly increases one’s chances of walking away thoroughly frustrated.
Not that I’m frustrated; Vox’s “Ilk” are more or less low-hanging fruit, and though he’s got a murmuring purr, he’s not much farther up the tree himself. Nonetheless, I’m going to give an objective, fair judgment in this debate. I read Round One this evening…
As you probably know well by now, VD is a very different type of Christian than you are.
I’ve known that for a while now, what with all the derogatory remarks about blacks and Jews and women and… [fill in the blank with the pariah du jour]. Honestly, I’m not sure what to make of him. All I can say for sure is that I’m impressed with his opening arguments in the debate with Dominic.
cl
says...Though, Hunt, don’t take the above to mean I see myself and Vox as unequally fallen, as far as “Christianity” is concerned. We are all sinners. We all have issues with pride. We are all fallen.
joseph
says...Anybody else curious to know what a CL VD debate would look like?
cl
says...Are you the one who commented as “Joseph Dantes” in this debate between Vox and I? Either way, here you go. Now you know what a debate between us would look like: Vox getting his ass handed to him for making slanderous accusations about atheists in general, followed by his cheerleaders and defense lawyers whining, not to mention calling me such “Christian” names as “asshole”, “pussy”, “fag”, “bitch”, “woman”, and many others that certainly don’t portray the love the Bible encourages Christians to have.
Dominic Saltarelli
says...A debate between cl and Vox would look like this:
VD would make a definitive statement or sweeping generalization.
cl would state that you can’t really know for sure regarding said definitive statement or sweeping generalization.
VD would say “yes, you can.”
cl would say, “no, you can’t.”
repeat ad nauseum.
Hunt
says...cl, that’s probably as good a summary of what gradually happened as any. To be honest, when I started commenting there as Beelzebub I was pretty much a snarky butthead, but that was at the start of my blog reading, and almost everyone goes a little nuts to begin with. I then matured and am now generally as moderate as the average blog commenter — except at VP I’ve pretty much retained my previous self because I figure “what the hell.” Unfortunately that spilled over to here, and for that I apologize.
Hunt
says...It’s a pretty sad commentary on life that people usually adopt the behavior pattern of the people they’re around. That may be a general character of all mammals. Even pets seem to adopt the dispositions of their families. If VD wants to run a “shark tank” I guess that’s his prerogative.
However, in one of my comments there (deleted) I said that if that is the case, it would be best if people like Spacebunny, who need chain mail suits, bang sticks, and repellent choose not to descend.
cl
says...Dominic,
You left a few parts out. More like:
VD: I can make gross overgeneralizations about atheists in general, and here’s why…
CL: No, Vox, those aren’t cogent reasons supporting the gross overgeneralizations about atheists in general, and here’s why…
VD: You just don’t understand CL…
CL: No, Vox, that’s handwaving, I’ve demonstrated my understanding via cogent objections you have yet to rebut…
VD: I’m done, time to watch me some football.
cl
says...Hunt,
It’s all good, no need to apologize although I appreciate the olive branch.
I’ve marveled at that observation for years…
joseph
says...@CL,
No, I am not that Joseph,..I would be quite reluctant to comment on VP, I don’t think i cpuld avoid snarking Taylor to high heaven, as funny as that might be it’d be a waste of him.
Honestly tempted to believe Taylor is the work of a comedian.
@Dominic
LOL
Luke vs. VD
Seemed to go:
Luke, “I don’t understand what you believe.”
VD, “You don’t understand what I believe, mwah hah ha!”
It was better after the reboot.
@CL
So many pets are used as substitute kids, get spoiled and psychologicallly ruined, then when babies enter the family home, bye bye bratty, snappy, seperation anxiety suffering, nervous aggressive Yorkshire terrier/pug/boston terrier/chihuahua etc.
Peter Hurford
says...That is such a perfect summary.
Matt DeStefano
says...Where was the Luke vs VD debate? I’d be interesting in looking at it!
Peter Hurford
says...Matt,
Check out http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=4476
It’s not really a “debate” per se, but it’s a good read.
Crude
says...Just to add my own two cents in here, and only because I didn’t see it covered…
If one is convinced that atheists are more likely than not to be liars, shouldn’t we suspect that atheists are more likely than not to hide their atheism? Or even be willing to identify as Christian?
This seems obvious, so I’m sure someone brought it up. But I didn’t see it at a glance, so there we go.
cl
says...Ask Vox. He’s got an answer for everything.
Crude
says...I’m sympathetic to Vox on this matter, but I think he went overboard with the generalization. I do think he’s in the past made it clear he sees a difference between two types of “atheists” (merely irreligious, and the self-described a theists), but oh well.
I think that was the single longest thread I’ve ever seen on VP too.
cl
says...I agree, but then, what are you sympathetic to?
Yet, he clarified that “atheists” in the OP meant “atheists in general,” which means he wasn’t talking specifically about the so-called “High Church Atheists.” So…?
Crude
says...I agree, but then, what are you sympathetic to?
The direction, not the destination, is the best way to put it. I think you rightly called him out on how far he went. Or seemed to be going anyway.
Yet, he clarified that “atheists” in the OP meant “atheists in general,” which means he wasn’t talking specifically about the so-called “High Church Atheists.” So…?
Yeah, that’s that part that confused me – since I think a distinction really has to be made. I think there’s a serious problem with equating agnostics and the merely irreligious with atheists, something I thought he didn’t do before, but in that response he really seemed to be doing.
Interesting back and forth if nothing else.
joseph
says...@P.Hurford,
Thankyou!
@CL
“Ask Vox. He’s got an answer for everything.”
The fact that this is the opinion of you on most atheist blogs, makes you saying this delightful! I mean that without snark.
If the warfare is mental you are Saladin, Vox is Walter Kurtz…